when we deliver a message that access to the internet, exchange for information and open science good, i don't see how this can be harmful. when we tell north koreans -- i've been dealing with them for years, what they are doing is heading toward a path toward confrontation against their own interests. against their own economic growth by spending so much on nuclear weapons, on missile tests, that's the message that they receive, and maybe we'll do some good, maybe not. and then there is the american there. >> you didn't get a chance to meet with kenneth bay. his son had written a letter, that he was hopeful you would deliver to his father. what happened on that front? >> the letter will be delivered. kenneth bay is way up in the northern part of the country. not accessible to us. but we made the point very strongly that he should be treated properly. we were assured that the judicial proceedings on his case would happen soon. that's sometimes a good sign, because it means it may be wrapping up and hopefully he'll be released. nobody had been -- we have a swedish representative there.